Clay McLeod Chapman on Horror, Comics and ‘SHINY HAPPY PEOPLE’
Interview with Clay McLeod!
If you’ve ever seen Clay McLeod Chapman speak live, you know he charges into a room like some kind of maniacal magic man. Just a ball of pure positive energy barely contained in human form. The author of Ghost Eaters, Wake Up and Open Your Eyes, and What Kind of Mother, Clay has, in my short years of knowing him, never once failed to surprise.
In person, he radiates this infectious, frantic enthusiasm. And on the page, he delivers those “what the fuck” moments that drop like a pin in a dead-silent room. Clay doesn’t just tell a scary story… he autopsies the human heart. With finesse, he’s always figuring out new ways to make it beat.
From his latest novel, Shiny Happy People, to his comics like Seance in The Asylum, or even his interviews in the Fearmongers podcast, Chapman has built a whole empire out of summoning some personal demons and making them speak in the written word. We caught up with Clay to dig into the emotional horror that is his process and got to know more about his latest book and just what makes them…
Shiny Happy People.
New outlet. Same agenda. Same me screaming into the void for those who’ll listen. For the uninitiated who’ve missed our previous interrogations, who are you, Clay McLeod Chapman, and just how do you do the spooky arts in so many freakin’ mediums?
CLAY MCLEOD CHAPMAN: Oh, boy… I’m still trying to figure out who the heck I am. I don’t know if I’m any closer to understanding myself now than when I first hopped onto this hamster wheel, however many years ago.
I’ve always wanted to be a storyteller, I know that much. The medium may change, depending on the story… but there’s something to be said about that idea of spinning a yarn that really fills my life with a sense of necessity. I yearn to tell stories. Any story. All the stories. Big stories, small stories. Tiny, hand-carved stories. Stories only I can tell.
Those stories just so happen to be spooky-ooky.
I read your recent Substack post about Neurosis. As a fellow neurotic goblin, I just have to say: a-schwat? First, thanks for guest posting on The DeMonster, haha. I’m sorry if I made you feel self-conscious. Forgive me? I barely understand Substack after using it for years, and I worry I am running this one like a baby steering a cruise ship.
(Pssssst. Thank you, Sami, for believing in me.)
Clay, just what are your goals on Substack?
CLAY MCLEOD CHAPMAN: It’s funny… I think we’re all just trying to navigate these social media waters the best way we know how. I’m at a place where I feel like I know less. The industries that we strive to survive in are either collapsing or constricting, and it’s making it challenging to reach those folks on the other side who might be interested in whatever it is that we have to offer…
How do you find your audience? How do you find readers? Any readers?
Most days, I feel like I’m casting these 140-character missives into the wind. Or screaming into the void. Or fading into the online ether… or… or…
For me, so far, my mindset when it comes to Substack has been a lot of throwing-it-against-the-wall-and-seeing-what-sticks… but that’s exhausting.
Substack has become a place where I can air out my own sense of self-consciousness. Of which I have plenty. I’ve been told time and time again that you have to ‘cultivate your brand’ in order to reach readers… and while that’s probably true, I don’t know if I feel like I can do that.
I think a lot of audiences look to their authors/artists to see how they do what they do. Peek behind the curtain, as it were, and see how the sausage is made… but what if what’s behind the curtain is just total and absolute chaos? What if our heroes don’t know what they’re doing any more than we do? What if nobody knows anything?
I don’t know what I’m doing. I don’t know anything. I’m just trying. And failing. And trying again. Essentially, I’m reverting back to ye ol’ bloggy blog days and simply using my own personal Substack to express my own ineptitude and panic when it comes to surviving in this industry. Whatever industry, take your pick. All the industries. Comics, publishing… The world kinda feels like it’s burning, and I just want to acknowledge the flames.
I’m with you there in feeling that. Though this year, you said you did THIRTY-NINE events for your promotional tour these past three months. Thirty-nine. People give me shit for doing 2-3 a week. How are you alive? Are you alive? You’re a ghost, aren’t you? That explains… everything these past few years.
It’s like you’re Bruce Willis and I’m… the same age as Haley Joel Osment.
CLAY MCLEOD CHAPMAN: I’m not going to lie… It was pretty tiring. But what else am I going to do? I have to believe that it’s worth it. If five people show up for an event, it’s worth it. If somebody, anybody, is going to take time out of their day to come see me… It’s worth it.
To me.
Is it worth it to my publishers? To the world at large? To others? I have no clue… But I’m operating under the basic principle of: If I work hard, and put in the time, and hustle, and say yes to every opportunity that comes my way… it’ll lead to something. I don’t know what. More book sales, more attention, getting into heaven… something. At least I hope that I’ll be able to continue doing what I love, which is telling stories. I just have to find those people who might like what I have to offer, who might pick up one of my books…
Who just might take a chance on me.
I think you have a lot to offer, bud. Alright, serious now. You bounce between novels, comics, and live storytelling like a chaotic creative pinball. How do you shift gears from page to stage without exploding?
Is there even a routine still, or are you just playing the scariest game of creative improv?
CLAY MCLEOD CHAPMAN: The volley between projects actually helps, honestly… When I press send on a draft of one project, I dive right into the draft of another. If I’m operating at full steam, I can alternate between a few different projects and keep them on a steady schedule. I just need to be immersed within one project, one draft, at any given time. The focus has to remain on that specific story. Once I’ve done my draft or revision, I can send it off to my editors – and while I’m waiting for them to send me their feedback, I can tackle the next thing. And then the next. It’s just a matter of playing tennis with different partners.
The shift in mediums isn’t so tough IF you are listening to what the story wants to be. I know that sounds a little touchy-feely, but honestly, the best thing any artist can do is be open with the work they’re doing, and let it guide you… I have less self-imposed mandates these days on what a story needs to be. I’m more inclined to let it take the lead.
That sounds so arty-farty, forgive me.
Nah, that sounds real. I’m only learning about the art of the bouncing back-and-forth now.
I don’t think I ever asked you, but how did you even get into comics? I know how you got published in Marvel thanks to the amazing Ellie Pyle, who was your former student, but what were your origins? When did you write your first comic script?
CLAY MCLEOD CHAPMAN: It honestly all goes back to Ellie. She got me started. She was my big break. She was my boss. She was working with Stephen Wacker in the Spider-Man office, and they needed some stories for the back nine, so I started pitching these one-off stories about Peter Parker’s locker being haunted or Spidey standing up to some kid’s bullies.
It was great because it helped me learn how to write within the comics medium and tell fun stories, and simply play in somebody else’s sandbox with all their cool action figures. I owe Ellie so much, and I can’t thank her enough for giving me the opportunity to tell stories. If it weren’t for her bringing me into the fold with Spider-Man, I wouldn’t be here.
But like I said above… there were two different scripts that were, in essence, my “first.” The first script I wrote for Ellie and Spider-Man actually wasn’t the first to end up being the first to get published. My first official comic was for Ultimate Spider-Man #7… and it was about Peter Parker’s locker being haunted by the ghost of a kid who’d been bullied.
The first script I wrote eventually got published in Amazing Spider-Man #700.3… and it was a total riff on one of my favorite 80’s movies: Three O’Clock High. I love that movie.
That’s really cool. And since then, you’ve written for Venom, Scream, and more for Marvel. You once told me writing for them… it’s like “playing with toys in the toybox.”
What’s it like to mess with those toys? And also, can you share how much you LOVED writing Iron Fist again to me?
For science.
CLAY MCLEOD CHAPMAN: Ha! See? Toys in the toybox… It’s the best. Honestly, it’s so much fun being able to explore these various characters that readers know and love. The challenge is always going to be finding fresh perspectives, how to push into new narrative terrain. How can you take these characters and explore new stories with them? That’s what I try to do… I don’t always succeed, but I feel like it’s been fun trying. And the best, the hands down best, is being able to collaborate with some amazing, truly amazing, artists. Brian Level? Come on. Amazing. James Stokoe? Amazing. Richard Isanove? Amazing.
But you just HAD to bring up the whole Iron Fist thing… Ha! The truth is I probably shouldn’t have been writing for Iron Fist. But I actually like how the story turned out, so there’s that too… It was a challenge, for sure, but I feel like it led to some fun epiphanies.
Here’s the story: With Netflix rolling out their television series, Marvel wanted to put together a few mini-series for Luke Cage, Daredevil, Jessica Jones… and I got tapped to write a six-issue maxi-run for Iron Fist. I wasn’t a personal fan of his character, and felt as if I might have a difficult time getting over the sense of cultural appropriation when it came to his character… but then I started to ask myself, “Why not take this opportunity and do something fun? What would be the worst thing to do to Iron Fist?” Turns out, it’s take away his fists. Like, literally. For a character that has a historical root in appropriating the powers of another culture, I thought it’d be a gas to take those fists back.
So I lopped them off. Now Iron Fist has to fight without his Iron Fists. And it was so much fun… I actually ended up really enjoying the ride. We got to tell a nasty little story about demonic possession in the vein of Evil Dead II, which has always been a personal creative cornerstone to my imagination… and Marvel let us get away with it! The best!
Awesome. I had no idea! Thanks for sharing.
Now, years ago, you said in an interview we did that you weren’t a bestseller or an award-winner. That you were just a guy who said yes to work and kept going.
Well, now you’re New York Times–featured. And you’re even getting Stoker and Shirley Jackson nominations. How’s it feel to transform into the Belle of the Ball?
CLAY MCLEOD CHAPMAN: You might not appreciate this… but I have to push back on the whole belle of the ball notion. I don’t feel like the belle of anything. To be honest, I feel like the hustle has only gotten harder. I don’t know who the heck I am right now, or if anyone is paying attention. I know that must sound disingenuous, considering all the accolades you just mention… but in a weird way,
I feel like the walls of my creative world have only closed in a bit. Hearing/reading about how it looks/feels from the outside, it’s just so different then what I’m seeing/feeling on the inside. I can recite every negative Goodreads review I’ve ever gotten (of which there are plenty), but I couldn’t do the same for a single positive one… That’s just the way it goes, right?
My only remedy is to keep my head down and keep working. Keep pitching. Keep telling stories. If there’s any leverage my recent success has offered me, it’s the opportunity to keep doing this. Keep on keeping on…
And that’s honestly all success needs to be for me. The ability–the privilege–to keep working in these fields. I don’t need or even want a mansion on the hill. I just want stability and the ability to keep telling the stories I want to tell. That’s success enough.
Alright. Now let’s get to why we’re here. Let’s talk Shiny Happy People. What’s it about, and why should I spend my bucks on it?
CLAY MCLEOD CHAPMAN: I’m spinning my own body snatchers story! I’ve never tackled the body snatchers trope before… and they let me!
Imagine, if you will… you’re a high schooler. Everybody around you starts acting… weird. Different. They look the same, act the same, talk the same… but there’s just something off about them all. You can’t put your finger on it, but you know there’s something different about your friends and family. Something just under the skin.
I’m paying huge lip service to all the body snatcher movies and books. All of them. There’s a social media spin to it all, so consider it something akin to…
INVASION OF THE SNAP-CHATTERS
OOoooooOOOOoooooH…
Hahaha! Well, I’ll be honest, I haven’t read the book yet (I KNOW), but from what I’ve seen, like Ghost Eaters, it involves drugs.
Mushrooms in Ghost Eaters, Spores in Shiny Happy People… are you okay, Clay?
Did D.A.R.E. sponsor you to scare kids into being straight edge or something?
CLAY MCLEOD CHAPMAN: Look, addiction is scary. When I look at the opioid epidemic and what it did to friends and family, people who seemed to have their souls hijacked seemingly overnight… that shit is scary. Truly, truly scary. Imagine there’s a medicine, prescribed by your own doctor, picked up at your own pharmacy, touted by the world, that’s supposed to help you, heal you… when in reality, it’s turning you into something else. Terrifying. And that’s real! Before sci-fi enters the fray. We don’t need an extraterrestrial attack to make fentanyl frightening. Reality is scary enough. I just added an sci-fi spin to it all to make it a little more palatable, a bit more fun. A little bit of sugar makes the existential terror go down…
And then some. So Invasion of the Body Snatchers. Given that this is your first YA book, how’d you balance this from the usual horror we’ve grown to love?
CLAY MCLEOD CHAPMAN: You know… truth told, there’s not much difference between the two. I thought there would need to be, but no, apparently, the youths of today can handle their hardcore horror.
I’m jesting, of course.
Teens are reading adult horror already. They don’t need writers to pull their punches. In all honesty, there’s some YA out there that goes so hardcore, it’s like a hundred times harder than what adults are reading in horror.
These are scary times. Makes sense. There are so many things that scare me regarding the next generation. Social Media. AI-Enshittification. Toxic bullshity status quo fake positivity. What scares you about the problems kids face today and does the new book reflect on these themes amicably?
CLAY MCLEOD CHAPMAN: I’m just so scared. Scared of everything. How easy it is to get duped by a SPAM bot pretending to be human. How easy it is for some folks out there to click on a link and get their identities completely hijacked… How some people don’t care whether their art is created by a human or rehashed AI… It’s all just… a terrifying time. Horror, in of itself, is becoming a place to find catharsis. It’s oddly enough a safe space, regardless of the medium, whether film or TV or books or comics. I think more people are going to horror now to find escape, in order to hide from the real world horrors outside their windows. SHINY HAPPY PEOPLE deals a bit with this… the horrors Out There… while hopefully offering readers a safe space to explore those horrors, and perhaps release them.
I know I’m not your therapist, but what personal demons do YOU keep returning to in your stories? And what’s the REAL horror theme in Shiny Happy People?
CLAY MCLEOD CHAPMAN: I’m a dad now, so a lot of my personal writing casts my kids in the most awful horror scenarios. It’s terrible, I know, but I need to expunge these fears… by writing about them, again and again, day in and day out. I’m a sadist looking for solace.
What do you hope to achieve to say or explore in this one?
CLAY MCLEOD CHAPMAN: In an AI world, where things are really starting to homogenize… be rough. Be raw. Be punk. Be You. Nobody else can be You, no matter how imperfect you are. It’s those imperfections, those rough edges, that make you so… You.
Finally, you’ve given me a ton of great advice over the years. I consider you a friend and mentor, and hell, I even linked to one of our other sagely interviews in my final months at The Beat. So, for readers of The DeMonster, can you share some stupidly profound or profoundly stupid advice with us?
CLAY MCLEOD CHAPMAN: Burn it all to the ground.
(Ha! How’s that for sage advice?)
Shiny Happy People is in stores now, everywhere books are sold.
Christian Angeles is a writer and entertainment journalist with nearly a decade of experience covering comics, video games, and digital media. He was senior editor at The Beat during its Eisner Award–winning year and also served as managing editor of The Workprint. Outside of journalism, he writes comics and books.
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